Talk: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's Portable: The Gears of Destiny

Media

Um... why isn't this showing up on the Media and Continuity pages? The code for it is there, as far as I can tell. Refreshing doesn't seem to do anything. --Prime32 16:32, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Just like Strada doesnt show up in Cartridge system at the moment... There should be some time lag on the wiki. K.Hayes 17:24, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't show up because the release date and the chronology (year when it takes place) aren't specified yet, and the Media and Continuity lists require those to sort the installments in the correct chronological order. About Strada, yes, there is a slight timeout on the wiki, before the lists update, but you can bypass it by making a "null edit", that is, opening the page in edit mode then saving without actually changing any content. This automatically clears all page cache. --Koveras Alvane 19:54, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

New template for sequences

I am thinking of making a new infobox template for individual sequences, like of like {{Infobox Episode}} and {{Infobox Chapter}}. What should I call it: {{Infobox Level}}, {{Infobox Mission}}, {{Infobox Route}}?.. Since I am not familiar with the structure of the games, what do you guys think good infobox fields would be? My ideas are:

• title, title_ja, title_romaji: The individual title of the sequence
• image, imagewidth, caption: An image to illustrate the infobox
• game: The game the sequence is part of, obviously
• index: The ordinal number of the sequence in the full game?
• character: The primary player character of the sequence?

Anything else? --Koveras Alvane (talk) 19:59, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

Well that could work with BoA paths since those indeed do have actual names. Actually paths are named PHASES. Each of the 9 characters has his own phase/playtrough and that has a name. It even has the Season one red splash screen with the name of the phase . In the parlance of the BoA then each of the phases is then composed of stages, where each stage is one fight and has it's own intro, and outro. Plus at the start and end of each phase there is a static image cutscene. Stages have no names, except a number. Like Stage 1, Stage 2 etc.

As for the GoD, there the content is split into Sequences. Sequences don't have names, even though they ussualy have a toppic and a nominal protagonist. For example Sequence 1's protagonists were the Florian sisters while in Sequence 2 the protagonists are Nanoha and Yuuno. Each sequence BTW has to be beaten in one go since game does not save between battles. Sequences on the other hand DO HAVE title images which I might have ripped from the game, so those can be used. Each sequence is then composed with a set number of fights, with some of fights having different variations of combatants. Beating one variation is enough to proceed. Battles don't have names but they do have two, alphanumeric designations. Example below:

First in the upper right is the Stage-Battle designation. It tells you that this is a battle in Sequence 2 and that it's a second battle in that sequence (2) and first variant of the battle (A). In this case you could switch to the second variant and be able to fight as Yuuno against Aria and Lote, in which case this would be the Battle 2B.

There is also destiny designation. In this case it's 6, which means this is the 6th potential battle in the story. Both Sequence 2 Battle 3A and 3B are potential Destiny 6 battle.

I guess it's probably best to treat both the Sequences (GoD) and the Phases (BoA) the same. For them the possible attributes should maybe be:

• Name: In case of BoA we should use the actuual name "Path of Character: Name of Path" and in GoD just Sequence 1, 2 etc.
• Image - potential either title (GoD) or ilustrative (BoA) image.
• Protagonist/s: Basically who the player plays as. Can be more than one character. I don't think that it's ever more than 2.
• Number of potential battles in sequence

I also guess you can add which game is this for and an index for each of them if you need those to properly tie up things in the background, allthough I should note that the Sequences/Phases in BoA don't really have an order. You can play any of them at any time. The only ordering is how they are ordered in the 3x3 grid during character selection. And I guess we should name the template Sequence, but there should still be a way for the reader to see them labeled as Phases's in the case of BoA, and Sequences in case of GoD. 

If we want to then make templates for Battles/Stages maybe call them battles? There is again the issue of the nomenclature since in BoA they are called Stage 1, 2 etc (plus there are 2 per path unnamed extra stages). Of the attributes I guess we can use:

• Game
• Sequence
• Battle name: 3A, 2B, 1, 2, 3, Extra 1 etc.
• Battle in sequence (3A and 3B have the same number, or maybe reuse the Destiny number?)
• Playable character:
• Opponent:

I wouldn't bother adding title images for each fight since there isn't going to be that much striking images. MAYBE use the character select image, like the one above.

If we are talking fiddly details, if you ever make a contents bar at the bottom of the page for battles in a sequence, if possible it would be nice to find a way to order the battles so it's obvious which are the optional ones. Like so:

Sequence 1

Battle 1A	Battle 2A	Battle 3A	Battle 4A
	Battle 2B	Battle 3B

But I have no idea how difficult or fiddly it might be.

CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 23:27, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

First of all, thank you for a detailed explanation. I will make some kind of mock-up for an inbofox later today based on this data. That said, I will prefer to make pages for individual sequences, rather than single battles, because in my mind, sequences correspond to entire anime episodes in terms of content size, and episodes usually contain several battles. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 06:22, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah that is my thinking too. Also they roughly correspond to episode length. Like Nanoha's path during BoA is something like ~50minutes, with significant chunk of that being battles since in BoA you had to win best out of 3, while GoD brings it down to best out of 1.

Maybe add short battle descriptors next to battle summary, or something.

CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 09:18, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

Again, I have to point out that GoD sequences do have individual longer (sub)titles added in the Guide Book (although it is sometimes long like "Thoughts of the Book of Darkness, Hayate Yagami, and the Knights"... see below), based on which I can perform the article naming or renaming later.

In fact, the Guide Book actually uses a table similar to below for GoD sequence 01 (indeed, including who versus whom).

Destiny 01 - Battle 1A	Destiny 02 - Battle 2A	Destiny 03 - Battle 3A	Destiny 04 - Battle 4A
	Destiny 02 - Battle 2B	Destiny 03 - Battle 3B

"Destiny xx" will be good for sub-sectioning in the article when summarising what happened in the scenario, c/w (ex/final) stage xx for BoA. One point to note is that the contents in certain Destiny (as well as among BoA scenarios) are actually mutually exclusive. For example, in Destiny 02, Amitie will either face Yuuno or Alph but not both of them for a fluent storyline. (When Stern plans to vaccinate U-D, either Stern or Levi has to draw her attention and another person do the vaccination, but not both scenarios happen.) In these cases, notes or columnar format may be used for the scenario summary.

I do think we can use GoD sequence 01 ("The Gears Traveled Through Time-Space and the Dark Materials" (「時空を超えた少女(ギアース)たちと闇の構築体(マテリアル)」)) as sandbox and try to fit out the right patterns and necessary infobox fields, before proceeding to the second article in this wiki. --Hades (talk) 17:49, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

Considering that in game those titles are never used. Especially since the one for Sequence 1 would kind of give away the spoiler that Florians aren't coming from another world/dimension but from another time, which only starts being on the table at the end of Sqeuence one when Stern notes that the time moved and when in Sequence 2 Vivio and Einhart show up. Maybe not use them as explicit tiles, but note the name in the intro paragraph, as a curiosity?

And oh yeah, battle variants are exclusive most of the time. Sometimes one might be able to spin a story where both happen (Yuuno/Nanoha vs Vivio/Ein) but most of the time you are expected to treat it as a choose your adventure.

CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 18:19, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

Sequence page prototyping

I have created {{Infobox Sequence}} and gave it a test run on "The Gears Traveled Through Time-Space and the Dark Materials". Please check if anything is missing first, so we can lock that format down and create additional templates, pages, and categories. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 13:36, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

I'm still unsure about featuring the titles so prominently since they don't really appear in-game. I mean the infobox is fine, whichever way you decide it should be easy to write Sequence 1 instead of the title. Maybe make the "Battle sequence" something that can be changed, so in the case of BoA we can use Phase, and in case of GoD just Sequence. Maybe if notting is inputted just leave it out altogether. I'm thinking should we also add potential opponents right there in the infobox? It's not a long list for every sequence. For the first one it's Kyrie, Yuuno, Arf, Hayate, Reinforce and Dearche. --CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 14:25, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

Personally I'm fine with using or not using (sub)titles as article name. If not used, it will be quoted in the article's intro paragraph. Sometimes episode/manga titles also have certain degree of explicit meaning/spoiler too. It does not worth spending time to argue such a game more than 5 years ago. People don't even play PSP now...

Im my opinion, potential opponents are not necessary for the infobox. Just summarise the battle flow table with the fighting characters in the first section is already enough. Otherwise in the final sequence it will be listing 15+1 characters. It does not really make sense to include such thing in the infobox... it's information overload. --Hades (talk) 15:00, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

@CetvrtaDimenzija: How would you call the GoD articles, then? Something like "Gears of Destiny Sequence 01"? That could work, but then we would also need to apply the same convention to BoA sequences, as well. One argument for that is that we have used the same convention for the Sound Stages (Nanoha Sound Stage 01, A's Sound Stage 01, and so on), but on the other hand, that decision was motivated mostly by the circumstance that Sound Stages did not have proper titles until StrikerS, so we didn't have any choice if we wanted to keep the titles consistent. With the PSP games, we seem to have the opposite case: AFAIU the sequences had in-game titles in BoA, but not in GoD, except the GoD titles were added retroactively in the guide.

I also agree with Hades on the topic of information overload through opponent names. If their number per sequence grows beyond 4-5, it's no longer practical to list them in the infobox, and I would rather see them in the overview table.

Regarding that overview table, however: do we want it to replace the textual summary that we have for episode/chapter pages, or should both exist simultaneously? The purpose of the short summary is so that it can be shown in the overview of the sequences in the main game article, like the episode summaries in anime season articles. If we replace it with the structure table, I could think of a way to automatically show that table in the game article overview. Otherwise, I suggest creating a separate section for it, something like "Sequence structure".

We also need to make sure the structure table doesn't grow too wide and still fits on regular screen resolutions. It is fine for sequences with just four battles, but I estimate that the horizontal table will get ugly starting from 7+ rows. If that's the case (you tell me?), we should probably change the table to the vertical format. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 19:18, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

How would I call the sequence/paths? Exactly how they are called in game, Sequence 1, Sequence 2 etc. If that is not descriptive enough for article title stick Gears of Destiny as a prefix to them. And BoA should be called as they are called in game again: Phase of Nanoha: "Name of the phase" or maybe only the name. Those GoD "titles" don't really strike me as titles so much as short descriptions what is in the sequence.

I was asking weather we should add the opponents, but sure if you think there are too many of enemies in some cases, then let's not use them.

I think the short sequence summary and sequence structure should coexist together. They kind of provide different information, and sequence structure also provides a graphic overview of how the sequence is built which might save us some time explaining the structure in summary. The question to me now is will the short summary be long enough to push the structure table below the infobox? Also is there a way, I don't know enough about wiki, to standardize that table, so it's allways the same color/border etc? CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 00:06, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

One thing that might be a bit of a bigger issue is the low graphic quality of the drawn art from the game. If we want to use for title image the same image that is used in game for that sequence, they are going to be of severely low quality due to low resolutions. For example I have added the title Image from Sequence 1, and it should be notable how bury they are if you force a size on them. Other option is to use the entire image from which they were cut. That image was cut from this:

which is of more respectable quality.

- CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 00:06, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

I am not against naming sequence articles using the "[Game] Sequence [Index]" format, since we still have {{title}} and the semantic annotations to store full titles, but I insist that it must be consistent across games, even if the games themselves are not consistent about it. I guess I'd leave that up to Hades to resolve this stalemate.

Regarding structure tables, I think there is no easy way to fit them under the infobox, unless we do make them vertical, rather than horizontal. But in any case, making a new template to format them consistently across all articles should be easy.

As for images, I'd say that if it's really the same picture as the one used in the game, we can take it instead, but otherwise actual screenshots are preferred, like on the game-specific spell articles. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 08:04, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Re: tables, I see that with the contents widget open, it is high enough to push the structure below the info box. And as long as the short summary is 3-4 lines long it seems it should mostly help cover up the blank space between it and the table.

Re: titles: Is there a technical reason for pushing for this consistency? Coz I don't see why we need to force consistency on something that is inconsistent?!? These sequences are pretty much separate from one another. Hell I don't think they will even be appearing on any of the pages together? So unless it's technical, I personally don't see any issues with calling them as they are reffered in game.

Re graphics: Trouble with these games is that while the 3D graphics have aged remarkably well and are nice even upscaled, mostly because they use flat colors and non detailed textures, the 3D visual's aren't that striking. You would be hard pressed to figure out from which particular sequence an image of two characters standing in air facing each other is. On the other hand 2D art is visually striking. And so far as far as I have seen they are reusing the story 2D graphics (often simply cropped) as title images. I have replaced the cropped image with the big one.

Option C here is I guess a screenshot of the sequence selection screen with the sequence highlighted, maybe cropped so only the title image is seen.

CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 09:03, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

I will leave the specific image selection up to the individual editors, since it doesn't affect the overall article structure. All I ask is that each image is actually representative of the events in the sequence, rather than just a random screenshot depicting the editor's favorite character (we've had this problem in the past).

There is no technical reason for title consistency, but there are stylistic reasons - consistency is just something we have been historically after on this wiki. As for whether they will be appearing together on a page, I certainly hope so, as it is my plan to make an automated sequence list using the semantic annotations, similar to the episode and chapters lists in anime and manga pages, respectively. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 09:25, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

I am currently prototyping a template for sequence structures, and need to know the maximum branching degree found in the games. In other words, which sequence has the most branching battles and what exactly its structure looks like. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 12:48, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Since I haven't completed the game I can't say from expirience, but judging by the fan summary, there can be up to 7 variants. Most of the time it's 2-~4, but there are couple of times when it's in the order of 7. Also there is at leas one case apparently where your choice during one of the stages/destinies locks you in for the next fight. Given all that I think it's best if the table is horizontal, so there is room for it to expand if the number of versions is large.

CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 14:01, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

So most sequences are 2-4 battles long, but some of the battles have up to 7 variations? If that's the case, then the horizontal table does look like the better choice, however, HTML is really ill-suited for that kind of modelling. I will see what I can do... --Koveras Alvane (talk) 14:59, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Oh and BTW, I removed the location section from the Sequence 1. Frankly I'm unsure if we should even have that for these. Most of these seem to be happening somewhere on Earth, but they are never explicit. I guess we could use map names instead if we really wanted to keep the section. The maps on the other hand are hardly important since they are there just as background.

Also the Device section, might be a bit superfluous, since they don't talk in this (in BoA RH actually had lines), except maybe Teo meawing and Chris gesticulating), but I'm unsure on that. Another idea I'm totally not sure is, maybe in the character list there needs to be a separation between characters that have lines and characters that fight? But I'm unsure. CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 14:08, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, a locations list doesn't make much sense in that case. I'd keep the Device section, though, since most Devices don't have speaking roles in most manga chapters, either, and we still list them. Same goes for speaking and non-speaking character roles. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 14:59, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

@Koveras: There are usually 4 or less battles in a Sequence, except for (i) Sequence 7 (Side-R 4 battles by Rynith, Side-P 4 battles by Presea) which we can use two 4-column tables; and (ii) Sequence X (equivalent to Seq. 12; 5 battles by Yuri) which we may use tighter column widths. For Final Sequence (equivalent to Seq. 11), there are 2 battles only but 7 options for each of them, making it 7 rows 2 columns 14 cells. No comment on HTML format or plain format. --Hades (talk) 18:19, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Alright. What's your take on the sequence article titles? Should we take the proper titles or the template "[Game Title] Sequence [Number]"? --Koveras Alvane (talk) 19:57, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

I should note that my previous statement that all of the Sequences were named Sequence N, was wrong. There are I think three, that buck this trend, and use side L, Side P and X in their names. CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 20:12, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

May be the template as article name is easier for reader understanding and in-wiki linkage, considering its general length and retroactivity. Those titles can instead be covered in the intro para. with the citation. Notably, "Sequence 01" and "Sequence 1" are both used in the game screens. Suggested to use Seq 01 as it appears more (including Guide Book) while Seq 1 only appears in the interface per image above.

Strictly speaking, Side-R and Side-P are still in the same "Sequence 07", R first (Destiny 28-31) and then P (Destiny 32-35), they can be covered by a single wiki article for simplicity (or separate if it is too bulky -- e.g. indexing as [[index:7.1|7]] and [[index:7.2|7]] for semantics). Final Seq equals to Seq 11, while Seq X is actually like an epilogue (happened on Eltria) which we may use 12 for its index.

Besides, for the flow table, Seq 6 also has 5 battles like Seq X. Is it necessary to standardise the table format or column width? --Hades (talk) 21:00, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

It seems "[Game Title] Sequence [Number]" is the preferred way, which I am OK with. For standardization of tables, I think it would be unfeasible to make a template for it, so I will instead just make a CSS table class for it to make sure all tables have the same style, but the structure itself would have to be done manually in each article. Just give me some time to get the preloads, templates, and CSS ready before you start making more articles... --Koveras Alvane (talk) 08:12, May 3, 2017 (UTC)

Sequencing commence

Welp, the preloads are done, so are the templates, categories, and CSS. We still need the navboxes for both games, but I will make them once all pages have been created for sequences (they can stay as red links until then). We also need to update our content policy and style guide, but that can wait, too. EDIT: Oh, and also the semantic sequence list on the game pages themselves.

In short, please use the agreed-upon title pattern and the sequence preload for creating new pages, rather than copying old content from the existing page (which is much more prone to error). --Koveras Alvane (talk) 09:11, May 4, 2017 (UTC)

The CSS table seems too close between columns, and does not look better than HTML version regarding rowspan change. --Hades (talk) 15:25, May 6, 2017 (UTC)

The border-spacing is currently set to 1 pixel, but I can tweak it to any size that looks good. Can you preview different values for the spacing and tell me the final one to add to the CSS? You can do so by adding style="border-spacing: Npx;" to the table definition after class="battle-sequence", where N is the size in pixels. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 10:17, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

Also, Hades, can you post all official sequence titles from the Guide Book here (including Japanese), so Cetvrta can use them to create new articles? --Koveras Alvane (talk) 10:40, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

There is a bug/feature with the templates for the battle names in the table. The Destiny number is NOT the same as the Battle Number.So Yuuno vs Amita from Sequence 2 should be Destiny 05: Battle 1B not Destiny 05: Battle 5B, since the Battle numbers reset/start back from 1 for each sequence. So if it's possible the code for these should include both the destiny and the Battle numbers or simply don't add battle number automatically and have us enter it with the ABC for variant like: GoD battle|5|1B|Yuuno|Amitie CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 10:04, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

OK, gotcha, gonna fix that. Also, please do use the preload I have created for sequences -- it will save you some work and ensure you don't accidentally copy-paste too much from the old page. If you're not sure how it works, I can explain. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 10:17, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

Preloads? You are going to have to explain that one to me. Or point me in the direction where I can get an explanation. For Sequence 2 I copied the code stripped out most of the text and then edited the header code manually.

BTW, maybe the info boxes should have links to previous and next sequence?

CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 10:21, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

Preloads are like templates, but for entire articles. They are listed here: to use the sequence preload, open that page and replace "Sequence title" input in the "Game sequence" row with "Gears of Destiny Sequence 03" (or whatever sequence number) and click on the Create button next to it. It will open a new page with that title you've specified in the editor, containing a template with standardized parameters, like "title" and "game". You can fill out those parameters and preview the page as normal, but when you save it, the template code will be replaced with proper wiki page code, which you can then tweak and expand as you like. Since you normally have to edit the page more than once, anyway, I usually fill out all parameters except summaries. Please try it out and don't worry if you don't get it right the first time (we can fix it). Also, if you have any questions about preloads, ask me anytime.

Regarding the previous and next sequence, we've had it for episodes and chapters before, but found them too much of a hassle. Instead, I will make the template {{Gears of Destiny}}, which will be included in every sequence page and contain links to all sequences in proper order. This way, every sequence will link to every other, including the next and the previous one.

Also, about your image uploads: your group picture of the Materials is actually a duplicate of File:Materials.png... If possible, try to use already uploaded pictures instead of uploading duplicates. You can find all pictures from GoD that have been uploaded so far here (if you want, I can make an automatic gallery of them to make searching for them easier). --Koveras Alvane (talk) 10:40, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

I have figured out the preload system now, because I spotted the link you provided before. Will use that when it comes the time for Sequence 3. I do lack the names from the guides for sequences though, so I used a placeholder one for now.

I did not know we had that one. Should I delete mine or should you? Yeah a gallery would be the best because even had I known about that page, I doubt I would have found the image. 10:47, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

I've deleted the file for you, and here is gallery for GoD. Note that it only works for images that have correct tagging in their description (how that works is explained here).

As for the sequence titles, I hope Hades will post them here today (I don't own a copy of the guide, either...). --Koveras Alvane (talk) 10:55, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

Will update them when a new article pops up. Please feel free to rephrase the title translation in intro para. & infobox when necessary, as they are long and annoying. --Hades (talk) 02:09, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

Story art

Anyone interested in helping that want to add story art to the articles, you can find all of the story boards/images here , in their maximum quality since these were lifted dirrectly from the game files. CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 10:30, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

Update

Nice job on the new way of showing the sequence structure that visually indicates where the characters can be choosen and where they can't.

Also it seems like we can use DF for Dark Fragment? I was thinking of using it, but I was not certain the term was common enough that that acronym would be familiar to everyone. Maybe add a note first time it appears in the page that DF is Dark Fragment?

Where should we put gameplay considerations for characters? Like for example Fate's sonic form in game, and that it's defences are poor and such? Fate's page somewhere or on the Sonic form (if page exists) page, GoD main page or what?

For structure part, I think every word/term should be kept simple, so just updated with "DF" directly without much consideration about elaborating that. Should only be used for structure section but not summary/other content. Can add a note like what you added for Destiny11->12.

Sonic Form is related to Fate's Barrier Jacket, you can add to the character article's respective section. For the other parameter-related description, I think you may briefly add to the "In the games" section before the tables. Those regarding Materials in BoA are under their Powers section, and can be moved to "In the games" if necessary. --Hades (talk) 16:13, June 29, 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. I tried to do Fate. Did I over do it or..... CetvrtaDimenzija (talk) 16:40, June 29, 2017 (UTC)